There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.
There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
Yeah see, women have gained gender roles that aren’t the traditional, but the traditional homemaker is still an option. A woman can say “I want to be an insufferable boss bitch” OR she can say “I want to be a homemaker and let a man pay my way my entire life.” Men do not get that kind of option; a man doesn’t get to say “You know what I’m just gonna find a wife who will pay all my bills for me.” That shit doesn’t work. Your neighbor or whatever who’s a stay at home dad? I guarantee that’s not how he made his case on a first date because there wouldn’t have been a second one. I’ve seen women go on Tinder under a man’s account and try dating as a man, it’s an eye opening experience for a lot of them. Make up a profile that says that. “I want to be a stay at home dad and have my wife be the sole breadwinner” and see if you get ANY attention. I guarantee you won’t.
then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition,
I would agree with you here. Measuring a man’s success as his ability to get and keep a woman is kinda worthless. A man can do everything right and still get left because she’s bored or thinks “an accountant is good but maybe I can find a lawyer.” Women love divorce, after the wedding ceremony it’s probably their favorite thing about marriage. Comparing the divorce rates of gay men, heterosexual couples and lesbians, gay men get divorced the least and lesbians get divorced the most. You seem to be pushing a hypothesis that divorces are caused by men behaving badly to their spouse, but if that were the case you’d think that gay men would abuse each other the most and lesbians the least, when the opposite seems to be true.
BUT HERE’S THE THING. The traditional gender role of a man is to be a breadwinner and provider–for himself at least–if not a wife and nuclear family, right? That’s the traditional man’s role. Work and earn a living for yourself and your dependents. The traditional male gender role includes bachelorhood be it temporary or permanent.
To step outside of that role pretty much means you’re not going to pay your own way, in which case where is food and rent going to come from?
Government welfare? In third world failed states like the USA this is unlikely and getting less likely each administration.
Living with his parents? Grown men who are still dependent on their parents are always the butt of a joke. “Parent’s basement” is synonymous with “pathetic loser” and you’ll see people call men who are dependent on their parents pathetic to his face even when they’ve come to him for help with something because he’s probably handy with electronics.
A breadwinning wife? Reversal of traditional roles, she brings home the bacon he cooks and cleans? Well to do this, he has to attract and keep a woman. By fucking definition. If he doesn’t, this strategy has failed. BY FUCKING DEFINITION.
Breadwinning husband? Straight men are locked out of this one.
Homelessness. Need I say more?
Prison. Also, need I say more?
Can you think of anything else for a man to do? No. It’s go to work and support himself.
Now that we’re in the workplace, you’ll find men are being pushed in a more masculine direction, not less. Women enter the workforce almost entirely in safe, indoor, climate controlled jobs. Women are rare to find in infrastructure, mining and logging, construction, transportation, so on and so forth. Men do the dirty and dangerous jobs and increasingly that’s all that’s offered to them.
What choice of gender role is there for a man? In the 1950’s you had husbands and wives. That’s it. The man went to work and brought home the money, the woman stayed in the home and did housework and cared for children. In the late 20th century feminism happened and you get the Liberated Modern Woman™. Women suddenly had choices. Men saw no such change. There is no such thing as the Liberated Modern Man™. I’m probably the first person in history to have typed the phrase.
Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
======
I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone…
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation?
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
This is a case where I’m going to do brain surgery with a backhoe. Disagree bots are now a thing that exist on the internet. So if I find myself arguing with someone who doesn’t seem to have an actual idea they’re arguing for they’re just disagreeing with me, I’m going to dismiss them as a worthless troll, automated or not.
There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.
The fuck are you talking about? A woman can go be career driven or whatever. What else is there for a man?
Anything else. If someone questions your manhood, just tell them they are a daddy fucking dipshit and move on.
Being literally whatever the hell they want. The world is not black and white.
Society does not permit this and you’re being intellectually dishonest in suggesting otherwise.
Lol ok
My next door neighbor is a stay at home dad what are you on about?
And how long is that going to go on before his wife divorces him out of resentment?
Well, they’ve been together for at least 24 years so idk?
There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
Yeah see, women have gained gender roles that aren’t the traditional, but the traditional homemaker is still an option. A woman can say “I want to be an insufferable boss bitch” OR she can say “I want to be a homemaker and let a man pay my way my entire life.” Men do not get that kind of option; a man doesn’t get to say “You know what I’m just gonna find a wife who will pay all my bills for me.” That shit doesn’t work. Your neighbor or whatever who’s a stay at home dad? I guarantee that’s not how he made his case on a first date because there wouldn’t have been a second one. I’ve seen women go on Tinder under a man’s account and try dating as a man, it’s an eye opening experience for a lot of them. Make up a profile that says that. “I want to be a stay at home dad and have my wife be the sole breadwinner” and see if you get ANY attention. I guarantee you won’t.
I would agree with you here. Measuring a man’s success as his ability to get and keep a woman is kinda worthless. A man can do everything right and still get left because she’s bored or thinks “an accountant is good but maybe I can find a lawyer.” Women love divorce, after the wedding ceremony it’s probably their favorite thing about marriage. Comparing the divorce rates of gay men, heterosexual couples and lesbians, gay men get divorced the least and lesbians get divorced the most. You seem to be pushing a hypothesis that divorces are caused by men behaving badly to their spouse, but if that were the case you’d think that gay men would abuse each other the most and lesbians the least, when the opposite seems to be true.
BUT HERE’S THE THING. The traditional gender role of a man is to be a breadwinner and provider–for himself at least–if not a wife and nuclear family, right? That’s the traditional man’s role. Work and earn a living for yourself and your dependents. The traditional male gender role includes bachelorhood be it temporary or permanent.
To step outside of that role pretty much means you’re not going to pay your own way, in which case where is food and rent going to come from?
Government welfare? In third world failed states like the USA this is unlikely and getting less likely each administration.
Living with his parents? Grown men who are still dependent on their parents are always the butt of a joke. “Parent’s basement” is synonymous with “pathetic loser” and you’ll see people call men who are dependent on their parents pathetic to his face even when they’ve come to him for help with something because he’s probably handy with electronics.
A breadwinning wife? Reversal of traditional roles, she brings home the bacon he cooks and cleans? Well to do this, he has to attract and keep a woman. By fucking definition. If he doesn’t, this strategy has failed. BY FUCKING DEFINITION.
Breadwinning husband? Straight men are locked out of this one.
Homelessness. Need I say more?
Prison. Also, need I say more?
Can you think of anything else for a man to do? No. It’s go to work and support himself.
Now that we’re in the workplace, you’ll find men are being pushed in a more masculine direction, not less. Women enter the workforce almost entirely in safe, indoor, climate controlled jobs. Women are rare to find in infrastructure, mining and logging, construction, transportation, so on and so forth. Men do the dirty and dangerous jobs and increasingly that’s all that’s offered to them.
What choice of gender role is there for a man? In the 1950’s you had husbands and wives. That’s it. The man went to work and brought home the money, the woman stayed in the home and did housework and cared for children. In the late 20th century feminism happened and you get the Liberated Modern Woman™. Women suddenly had choices. Men saw no such change. There is no such thing as the Liberated Modern Man™. I’m probably the first person in history to have typed the phrase.
Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
Why! 👏 Are! 👏 We! 👏 Rejecting! 👏 Norms! 👏 In! 👏 The! 👏 First! 👏 Place?!
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
======
I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Nobody gets respect when clapping for emphasis.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
I’m very convinced you’re a ChatGPT-based disagree bot now. You’ve got the reading comprehension skills of one.
That’s fucked.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
This is a case where I’m going to do brain surgery with a backhoe. Disagree bots are now a thing that exist on the internet. So if I find myself arguing with someone who doesn’t seem to have an actual idea they’re arguing for they’re just disagreeing with me, I’m going to dismiss them as a worthless troll, automated or not.