Neon 🇺🇦🇪🇺🇹🇼🇮🇱

Nuanced and well-thought-through thoughts instead of Populism? On Lemmy?

Seriously, It made me really happy to see that there are still people that actually inform themselves, sit down and think through stuff.

A rarity sadly.

We are so gonna see a pickachuface moment, aren’t we?

I am so sorry for you all over there.

But hey, at least you will have the privilege of Schadenfreude! Gotta stay positive, am i rite?

That is illogical to claim that NATO is keeping Russia at bay, then claiming that they are a threat

If i am using a spear to keep a Wolf at bay, is that Wolf not a threat anymore?

If someone wants to rob me and i point a gun at them go keep them at bay, are they not a threat anymore?

I rest my case, your honour.

why is russia fascist?

idk, wanting to conquer your neighbours and ethnically cleanse them isn’t good enough for you? Not having any elections, political voilence and assasinations, no deviation from party-line, force-conscripting young men, absolutely no regard for human live (ukrainian or russian), dreams of a greater russian Reich

You want me to go on?

Which Countries Meet NATO’s 2% Spending Target?

It’s on their own Website. Open the PDF. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_197050.htm

We are not talking about “most” Nato countries. We are talking about the ex-soviet countries.

You didn’t believe that ex-soviet countries were afraid of russia because Nato countries didn’t spend a lot of money on Military. But when you look at the individual countries, not at nato as a whole, those ex-soviet countries that joined Nato meet the 2% minimum (and like i said Poland even doubles it with 3.98%)

Another thing to consider is the capabilities of Russia

Russia has invaded Ukraine and bombed it to Rubbles. Russia is very much capable of attacking and destroying its Neighbours. Just take a Plane to Ukraine if you don’t belive it.

and it is illogical that Russia would attack a NATO country

Good. That means NATO is working in keeping the Russians away.

And btw, 2 years ago i personally would have declared you crazy if you told me that Russia was going to attack Ukraine. The Facts have been laid open to us. We can adapt and change to live in the new reality or live in denial.

Ukraine is a security concern for Russia, not for the United States, or the rest of Europe

Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to decide for itself what it wants

And yes it is a security concern for Europe since it’s right in its backyard, right on its Border. And it is even a security concern since it’s a huge producer of Food, and if that food doesn’t get to Africa etc, those regions could become unstable and global terrorist attacks could rise again.

Now, does that allow the EU or the US to dictate Ukraine what it should do? NO! because Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to carve its own way! The same way that Russia isn’t allowed to interfer in Ukraine because of its supposed “security interests”

Do you support the Blockade on Cuba?

since it wants to control the world and export its culture

Russia literally is invading its Neighbours because it can’t control them. Russia is the one that spend decades forcefully “russoficating” eastern Europe.

Fascist believe in autarky and see every single nation or country as a threat

Go onto russian State TV. Quote from Russian State TV: “We have no friends in the World, only Enemies” The US constantly talks about how important it is to work with their Allies. Who is the Fascist now?

The US has toppled far more governments than the Russians did in their entire history

excuse me what? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_change lets not forget all the eastern block. Well, technically you’re correct, they didn’t topple the baltics, ukraine, eastern Poland, they flat out annexed it. But I’m pretty sure that’s actually worse

When you are forcing other countries to become liberal, that is fascism.

What? i think you don’t know what fascism means, is that possible? I think you also don’t know what “liberal” means? I think you also don’t know how countries become liberal?

then NATO countries in Europe did not spend enough on their military to meet that said threat. Europeans spent below the NATO mandate of 2.0% of their GDP. They didn’t seem scared then.

Ah yes, that is a common Misconception if you’re not European. It is very easy to lump Europeans together in one Pot. Often people just look at the Actions of France, Germany and Italy to determine “European” behavior, when the EU is actually a hugely diverse pool of 27 autonomous Nations. Yes, Western European Nations such as Germany, Italy, Belgium etc (but notably not France) did spend a lot less than the 2% target. These Nations were famously also cozying up to Russia (Nordstream), not seeing it as a Threat. However, if you look at the eastern European Nations that were occupied by and/or border on Russia, the same Nations that joined NATO because of the Threat of Russia, all of these Nations do either match or exceed the NATO-target of 2% of GDP. Poland, in Fact, spends more on its Military than even the US (in %, not total)

NATO countries do not have an independent foreign policy.

Biden wants a tougher Stance on China while Scholz (Germany) wants to maintain good Business Relations Biden wants a clear Stance on Taiwan while Macron (France) openly disagrees and warns not to flame tensions (and openly calls Bidens Actions unwise and dangerous)

As you can see, European Countries do have and do Excercise independent foreign Diplomacy.

Many Europeans denounced the US’s war on Vietnam. Many Europeans decided not to join the Iraqi War. All prime examples of sovereign foreign Diplomacy.

It is not in European interest to bring about sanctions that weaken their own countries and bring instability.

which is why we’re enacting Sanctions instead of enacting a full Embargo. Which is why we capped the Price of Russian Gas instead of banning it outright.

Do you know what weakens our countries and brings instability? A fascist country waging a war of aggression in our own backyard. Russian Spies spying on and planning attacks on military bases. Russian Misinformation.

Those Sanctions are an investment into a Future, into a Europe where the Rule of Law and Peace reside. Where there’s no fascist war of aggression over imperial ambition. Where we Europeans can peacefully coexist and build a peaceful future over wounds of old. Together.

You are speculating and have no evidence to back up your claims that European countries joined NATO because of “fear”.

I am going to have to ask you to remain nice and not make any accusations since i am sacrificing my time and engaging with you in good faith instead of just down-voting you. I could do other Stuff in this Time, but i specifically chose to discuss this with you since you seemed to argue in good faith as well. I am asking you for it to remain this way.

Did you ever talk to someone from this Region who was for enlargement? Because they will tell you very clearly how Russia is a danger to their Nation and livelihood and how this was the main driver on why they joined NATO (and joined it this quickly). Anyways, just for you, i asked my Estonian friend why they joined NATO and he said “did you see what Russia is doing in Ukraine?” (Translation by me) (I think he’s mad at me for even asking this? I think i should apologize and explain it to him?)

Hatred of communism and hatred of Russia is one thing, but fear isn’t one of them.

I am sorry, i am not sure how to say this nicely, but that is just wrong. the EU and its Members engaged in multiple contracts with Russia over the years and was always looking for Cooperation. There was no hatred. There is, however, a lot of fear. Which is the reason why most nations once occupied by Russia are today Europes biggest Spenders on military.

And russia to day isn’t communist anymore, it’s closest to fascist in government and ideology.

The US provides security for NATO, Europeans saved their money to invest in their economy.

Western Europe did that (again, the exception being France). Eastern Europe has always maintained their Spending, and, as i already said, Poland even outspends the US (in %, not total)

It is the US that keeps NATO together, therefore, NATO unified,

Let me show you my Point of View: A while back, i think during the Trump Presidency, Macron(France) called NATO brain-dead and useless. A while it seemed like NATO was in an existential crisis and might not survive the decade. But ever since Russia invaded Ukraine, no one has said anything bad against NATO anymore.

It wasn’t the US, that held/put together NATO, it was Putin. Because his invasion destroyed European Peace and showed us again, why we (well, i am Swiss, so not me personally) had NATO in the first place.

We had a name for the Post-WW2 Peace. Pax Europaea (named after the roman Pax Romana). It was Russia, that destroyed this Peace. This is the Reason why we’re afraid of Russia. Why we’re against Russia. Why we invent new Sanctions. So that one Day we can create a new Pax Europaea, that will last and not be broken. So that my Children can finally live in Peace on this War-Torn Continent.

I am going to assume that you are writing here in good faith and as such i am going to respond to you in good faith.

This is why NATO was able to expand despite Russian objections throughout the decades

I disagree. From my european point of view, NATO was able to expand exactly because Russia was still a threat. There’s a Reason why these Countries wanted to join NATO. Because they knew that russia was still a threat and would invade its Neighbours, like it is doing right now in Ukraine.

Ukraine is not an interest to the US; that is to say, there isn’t anything in Ukraine that the US needs that is vital to either economic or national security. Ukraine is a national security concern for Russia. It doesn’t matter what happens to Ukraine, it does not affect the US, but it would affect Russia. The Russians are checking American influence in their own region. NATO is how the US has influence in Europe. European states in NATO have no independent foreign policy. In fact, it is subservient to US foreign policy. The Russo-Ukrainian conflict, the sanctions, the war, the economic decline, that is the price of being in NATO following US foreign policy.

This Part confuses me a bit. In the first Part you say that Russia has a right to invade and puppet Ukraine because it is a national security interest. But in the second Part, you say that the US wouldn’t have the right to dictate the foreign policy (it doesn’t, i will come to this later on) of its NATO-Counterparts. I Personally think that your first half is the wrong half. We have to stop looking at the world as pawns in a cold war to be played, but instead as independent parties looking to coexist. I don’t think any country has the right to dictate over another because of “national security concerns”. Otherwise the US would have the Right to dictate over Europe because they’re in the USs national security concerns. And the US would have never been allowed to declare independence, because that would have gone against the national security concerns of the british empire. So no, i don’t think that any supposed “national security concerns” of Russia validate any military Action. Besides i don’t even think they had any valid national security concerns. NATO Bases stayed in the West, the “original” Parts of NATO and never got into the new eastern territorries. And the NATO memeber states in the Baltics are much much closer to St. Petersburg or moscow than Ukraine. So Ukraine really isn’t that important to Russia. Also Ukraine was never under the Influence of the US. Ukraine wanted to move to the EU, a completely european Institution where the US doesn’t even have an observer Position.

now about the NATO Part:

1. The Part about the US dictating Foreign Policy: That is really not true. Look for example at the interactions between Macron (the French President) and the US Presidents. They are constantly bickering about foreign policy. Macron is heavily influential in steering European foreign-policy, more than any US-President.
2. The Part about Europe being forced into Sanctions: That also is not true. A lot of the Sanctions come from the EU, a purely european Institution where the US doesn’t even hold ab observatory role. It was us, the Europeans (yes, I am european, i am from Switzerland), who were so shocked about the first War since WW2 (we ignore the breakup of Yugoslavia, that is more complicated and resembles a civil war) that we demanded sanctions and reprisals against Russia. It was us, the Europeans, who forced the US to join Sanctions against Russia, not the other way round.

I hope i was able to give you some insight into this matter from a european (swiss) perspective and i was able to disprove some of your previously held notions. I hope you can use what i wrote here :)