Washington and Kiev are negotiating a bilateral security agreement that mirrors the 10-year commitments Ukraine has entered into with several European powers.
I am going to assume that you are writing here in good faith and as such i am going to respond to you in good faith.
This is why NATO was able to expand despite Russian objections throughout the decades
I disagree. From my european point of view, NATO was able to expand exactly because Russia was still a threat. There’s a Reason why these Countries wanted to join NATO. Because they knew that russia was still a threat and would invade its Neighbours, like it is doing right now in Ukraine.
Ukraine is not an interest to the US; that is to say, there isn’t anything in Ukraine that the US needs that is vital to either economic or national security. Ukraine is a national security concern for Russia. It doesn’t matter what happens to Ukraine, it does not affect the US, but it would affect Russia. The Russians are checking American influence in their own region. NATO is how the US has influence in Europe. European states in NATO have no independent foreign policy. In fact, it is subservient to US foreign policy. The Russo-Ukrainian conflict, the sanctions, the war, the economic decline, that is the price of being in NATO following US foreign policy.
This Part confuses me a bit. In the first Part you say that Russia has a right to invade and puppet Ukraine because it is a national security interest. But in the second Part, you say that the US wouldn’t have the right to dictate the foreign policy (it doesn’t, i will come to this later on) of its NATO-Counterparts.
I Personally think that your first half is the wrong half. We have to stop looking at the world as pawns in a cold war to be played, but instead as independent parties looking to coexist. I don’t think any country has the right to dictate over another because of “national security concerns”.
Otherwise the US would have the Right to dictate over Europe because they’re in the USs national security concerns. And the US would have never been allowed to declare independence, because that would have gone against the national security concerns of the british empire.
So no, i don’t think that any supposed “national security concerns” of Russia validate any military Action.
Besides i don’t even think they had any valid national security concerns. NATO Bases stayed in the West, the “original” Parts of NATO and never got into the new eastern territorries. And the NATO memeber states in the Baltics are much much closer to St. Petersburg or moscow than Ukraine. So Ukraine really isn’t that important to Russia.
Also Ukraine was never under the Influence of the US. Ukraine wanted to move to the EU, a completely european Institution where the US doesn’t even have an observer Position.
now about the NATO Part:
The Part about the US dictating Foreign Policy:
That is really not true. Look for example at the interactions between Macron (the French President) and the US Presidents. They are constantly bickering about foreign policy. Macron is heavily influential in steering European foreign-policy, more than any US-President.
The Part about Europe being forced into Sanctions:
That also is not true. A lot of the Sanctions come from the EU, a purely european Institution where the US doesn’t even hold ab observatory role.
It was us, the Europeans (yes, I am european, i am from Switzerland), who were so shocked about the first War since WW2 (we ignore the breakup of Yugoslavia, that is more complicated and resembles a civil war) that we demanded sanctions and reprisals against Russia. It was us, the Europeans, who forced the US to join Sanctions against Russia, not the other way round.
I hope i was able to give you some insight into this matter from a european (swiss) perspective and i was able to disprove some of your previously held notions.
I hope you can use what i wrote here :)
If Russia was such a threat, then NATO countries in Europe did not spend enough on their military to meet that said threat. Europeans spent below the NATO mandate of 2.0% of their GDP. They didn’t seem scared then. NATO countries do not have an independent foreign policy. It is not in European interest to bring about sanctions that weaken their own countries and bring instability. You are speculating and have no evidence to back up your claims that European countries joined NATO because of “fear”. Hatred of communism and hatred of Russia is one thing, but fear isn’t one of them. The US provides security for NATO, Europeans saved their money to invest in their economy. It is the US that keeps NATO together, therefore, NATO unified, because there is no competition when one country foots the bill of security.
then NATO countries in Europe did not spend enough on their military to meet that said threat. Europeans spent below the NATO mandate of 2.0% of their GDP. They didn’t seem scared then.
Ah yes, that is a common Misconception if you’re not European. It is very easy to lump Europeans together in one Pot. Often people just look at the Actions of France, Germany and Italy to determine “European” behavior, when the EU is actually a hugely diverse pool of 27 autonomous Nations.
Yes, Western European Nations such as Germany, Italy, Belgium etc (but notably not France) did spend a lot less than the 2% target. These Nations were famously also cozying up to Russia (Nordstream), not seeing it as a Threat. However, if you look at the eastern European Nations that were occupied by and/or border on Russia, the same Nations that joined NATO because of the Threat of Russia, all of these Nations do either match or exceed the NATO-target of 2% of GDP. Poland, in Fact, spends more on its Military than even the US (in %, not total)
NATO countries do not have an independent foreign policy.
Biden wants a tougher Stance on China while Scholz (Germany) wants to maintain good Business Relations
Biden wants a clear Stance on Taiwan while Macron (France) openly disagrees and warns not to flame tensions (and openly calls Bidens Actions unwise and dangerous)
As you can see, European Countries do have and do Excercise independent foreign Diplomacy.
Many Europeans denounced the US’s war on Vietnam. Many Europeans decided not to join the Iraqi War.
All prime examples of sovereign foreign Diplomacy.
It is not in European interest to bring about sanctions that weaken their own countries and bring instability.
which is why we’re enacting Sanctions instead of enacting a full Embargo. Which is why we capped the Price of Russian Gas instead of banning it outright.
Do you know what weakens our countries and brings instability?
A fascist country waging a war of aggression in our own backyard. Russian Spies spying on and planning attacks on military bases. Russian Misinformation.
Those Sanctions are an investment into a Future, into a Europe where the Rule of Law and Peace reside. Where there’s no fascist war of aggression over imperial ambition. Where we Europeans can peacefully coexist and build a peaceful future over wounds of old. Together.
You are speculating and have no evidence to back up your claims that European countries joined NATO because of “fear”.
I am going to have to ask you to remain nice and not make any accusations since i am sacrificing my time and engaging with you in good faith instead of just down-voting you. I could do other Stuff in this Time, but i specifically chose to discuss this with you since you seemed to argue in good faith as well. I am asking you for it to remain this way.
Did you ever talk to someone from this Region who was for enlargement? Because they will tell you very clearly how Russia is a danger to their Nation and livelihood and how this was the main driver on why they joined NATO (and joined it this quickly).
Anyways, just for you, i asked my Estonian friend why they joined NATO and he said “did you see what Russia is doing in Ukraine?” (Translation by me) (I think he’s mad at me for even asking this? I think i should apologize and explain it to him?)
Hatred of communism and hatred of Russia is one thing, but fear isn’t one of them.
I am sorry, i am not sure how to say this nicely, but that is just wrong. the EU and its Members engaged in multiple contracts with Russia over the years and was always looking for Cooperation. There was no hatred. There is, however, a lot of fear. Which is the reason why most nations once occupied by Russia are today Europes biggest Spenders on military.
And russia to day isn’t communist anymore, it’s closest to fascist in government and ideology.
The US provides security for NATO, Europeans saved their money to invest in their economy.
Western Europe did that (again, the exception being France). Eastern Europe has always maintained their Spending, and, as i already said, Poland even outspends the US (in %, not total)
It is the US that keeps NATO together, therefore, NATO unified,
Let me show you my Point of View:
A while back, i think during the Trump Presidency, Macron(France) called NATO brain-dead and useless. A while it seemed like NATO was in an existential crisis and might not survive the decade. But ever since Russia invaded Ukraine, no one has said anything bad against NATO anymore.
It wasn’t the US, that held/put together NATO, it was Putin. Because his invasion destroyed European Peace and showed us again, why we (well, i am Swiss, so not me personally) had NATO in the first place.
We had a name for the Post-WW2 Peace. Pax Europaea (named after the roman Pax Romana).
It was Russia, that destroyed this Peace. This is the Reason why we’re afraid of Russia. Why we’re against Russia. Why we invent new Sanctions. So that one Day we can create a new Pax Europaea, that will last and not be broken. So that my Children can finally live in Peace on this War-Torn Continent.
MOST NATO countries did not pay the mandatory 2% minimum. So, yes, the European states were not that considered their own security. Another thing to consider is the capabilities of Russia; Russia has no ability to project power across Europe. It is physically impossible for the Russians to conquer Europe, and it is illogical that Russia would attack a NATO country. That is a myth created to create hysteria as to garner more support against Russia. Ukraine is a security concern for Russia, not for the United States, or the rest of Europe. The US is more fascist than the Russia, since it wants to control the world and export its culture. Fascist believe in autarky and see every single nation or country as a threat. Balance of power politics is not fascism, it is rational, and common sense. The US has toppled far more governments than the Russians did in their entire history. When you are forcing other countries to become liberal, that is fascism.
How is Ukraine, a country that has spent 10 years fighting a low-intensity conflict on its own land in the Donbas, without strong military allies, and with an economy and political system that were just barely starting to see some stability, a “security concern” to Russia, a country that has soon thrown half a million men, and equipment worth several times Ukraines GDP at a war they can leave whenever they choose?
Ukraine never attacked anyone. They’re literally fighting for their lives. If Russia would just leave them alone this would be over. They didn’t have the capacity for aggression agains russia, but due to this war of Russias choosing, they’ve been forced to spend enormous amounts on scaling up their military.
Putin wanted the civil war resolved, and he thought he could trust NATO to resolve it. Instead, as Angela Merkel pointed out, the Minsk II Accords were merely to buy time to arm Ukraine.
In her interviews with Alexander Osang, which took place over a period of a year and in various locations, Merkel insisted that her stance on the Minsk agreement – which brought a ceasefire after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula – had been right. Key points of the Minsk peace talks, including disarmament and supervision by an international body, were never followed through. But Merkel said the agreement had nevertheless helped buy Kyiv time to arm itself better against the Russian military.
I deal with facts and logic. Putin does not want to fight NATO, but NATO clearly wants to fight Putin without initiating a nuclear war. Using Ukrainians to fight their war for them, which is the reason for arming them in the first place, and to use Ukraine as a NATO bulwark against Russia. Ukraine is in trouble today because of the refusal to handle the situation diplomatically. The motive is obvious, the US wants Ukrainians to fight Russia, and plotted to agitate Russia to invade Ukraine. NATO has absolutely no interest in any peace. They’re not fighting it, and they promote Ukrainians as fighting their war. A war which they can’t win. The US does not care about NATO. Caring would involve saving the lives of Ukrainians and to ensure peace and prosperity through diplomacy. If Lindsey Graham had his way, he would lower the draft age to 14 years old. It is an unhinged foreign policy; it is a war that did not need to be fought if there was a compromise. It is foolish to reject compromise because of valiant defiance. Bravado alone is not enough. The case in Ukraine shows there is irrational leadership in Ukraine. Zelenskyy was naive not acknowledge interests of other countries, especially a neighbor. Ukraine was ill-equipped, by all metrics, weaker than Russia. Russia was weak in the first year of the war, because the military was not prepared to go to war, but now Russia has a much better military, and they have the resolve to win. This shows a lack of reason on the part of the Ukrainians who seem romantically obsessed of joining NATO, which is a political alliance, and the EU, which has a military component.
You keep twisting to talking about NATO, and the EU, when an elected government in Ukraine is choosing to keep fighting. Remember that the majority of western support came after Ukrainians showed in the first weeks/months of the war that they were willing to fight- even without support.
Then you talk of how it is “irrational” for Ukraine to try to defend itself. In what world is it rational for Russia to spend so many lives and so much equipment on a war of choice?
Ukrainians wanted, and want, to live peacefully and in harmony with their neighbours. They never had any intention of hurting Russia. The Russian attack showed the whole world why any country that wants to be left alone needs to arm itself.
Hell, Russia was on its way into the good company of Western Europe, relations had never been better, with more cooperation and international trade than ever, when they decided that they had to attack and subdue Ukraine, because Ukraine was becoming a bit “too good” friends with the west.
You know you have a problem when NATO and the EU can just have a half open door, and countries actively seek to join, while Russia has to cause hundreds of thousands of deaths in order to force others to be “friendly nations” towards them.
Listen… Ukraine is irrational when they violated the conditions for which they gained independence. When Ukraine became independent, it was agreed that it would remain neutral. Since it is not neutral and actively aligning with a political alliance that is the enemy of Russia, it voided that agreement. Another thing, Crimea gained independence before Ukraine, and was an independent republic. In 1997, after bringing the Crimean Republic by force under its control, Russia, and Ukraine agreed to partition the land as to continue to have Russian military presence in Crimea. Sorry, but you are wrong, and have no basis for your argument. Russia has no interest in conquering anything and does not want to fight NATO. The US is the principle instigator that wanted Russia to invade. This is why the US has no interest in any peace process or rejected any diplomacy. Ukrainians are not supposed to win, they are supposed to weaken Russia. Russia is reacting to NATO expansion. Had Ukraine maintained neutrality like it agreed when it gain independence, it would not be in predicament. Western rhetoric and propaganda is contradictory and inconsistent; it is full of lies. NATO is neither morally on a superior level nor even obeys treaties and rules. You are repeating Western propaganda, which is proven by a study of Steve Walt and John Mearsheimer that democratic government lies to their citizens far more than autocracies. The mainstream news media that are dubbed “reliable” are narrative control. Your government wants you to believe their lies. These are the facts. Now you can believe in the myth of a Russian imperialism when it is in fact the expansion of NATO that is the problem for balance of power and ignoring international agreements, that Putin in all his years as public figure suddenly decides in Feb. 22, for no apparent reason, decided to Ukraine to start a new Russian Empire or bring back the USSR, it is a propaganda that falls flat when facts are involved. You like to pick sides, and you like to think you are with the good guys, but I can assure you, NATO are not the good guys. The US has no interests in Ukraine, Russia does, and the US, or NATO do not care about Ukraine. Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia into invasion, as to weaken them. The West did not keep their end of the bargain yet because you believe what your government and national media tells you, you have no ability to objectively judge a conclusion.
Lol, you’re literally claiming that Russia is too weak and pathetic to not attack someone when it is in their best interest to not attack them, because “big bad west” somehow forced them to attack, against their own wishes. Also, you’re talking about NATO expansion as if it’s something that’s been forced upon other countries, rather than a tough process to get through, that a bunch of countries have worked hard to complete, because they wanted to join. Just look at the recent ascension of Finland and Sweden, and you’ll quickly recognise that the main driver for NATO expansion is Russias neighbours wanting security from Russia. If Russia didn’t want others joining NATO they could just leave people alone.
Not only that, you’re saying “The US has no interest in Ukraine, Russia does…” as if “having interests in Ukraine” justifies invading the country and killing thousands of civilians. I don’t care what interests Russia has in Ukraine, they have no right to invade, because Ukraine is a sovereign country. Western countries don’t need to have interests in Ukraine to have a vested interest in maintaining a rule-based world order, where we can focus on making the world a better place rather than fighting off invading Russians. If Russia is allowed to force their will upon a free country, we are all forced to spend more resources on our militaries, which we would really prefer not to.
Again, this whole “Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia” argument just makes Russia look even more pathetic. They can just stop the invasion and leave if it isn’t in their best interest to fight. That’s literally what we’re asking for: Just stop. We don’t want this war, and the way we’re going to stop it is by helping Ukraine kill Russian soldiers on their soil until Russia gets the picture.
Finally, the thing about democratic governments lying to their citizens doesn’t really carry the weight you think it does, because we have actual free press and free speech, which leads to lying politicians being held accountable. Just take a look at any Western European democracy, and you’ll see a host of politicians that have been outed for all kinds of things, and subsequently been punished either legally (if applicable) or in the polls.
Lol, you’re literally claiming that Russia is too weak and pathetic to not attack someone when it is in their best interest to not attack them, because “big bad west” somehow forced them to attack, against their own wishes. Also, you’re talking about NATO expansion as if it’s something that’s been forced upon other countries, rather than a tough process to get through, that a bunch of countries have worked hard to complete, because they wanted to join. Just look at the recent ascension of Finland and Sweden, and you’ll quickly recognise that the main driver for NATO expansion is Russias neighbours wanting security from Russia. If Russia didn’t want others joining NATO they could just leave people alone.
Not only that, you’re saying “The US has no interest in Ukraine, Russia does…” as if “having interests in Ukraine” justifies invading the country and killing thousands of civilians. I don’t care what interests Russia has in Ukraine, they have no right to invade, because Ukraine is a sovereign country. Western countries don’t need to have interests in Ukraine to have a vested interest in maintaining a rule-based world order, where we can focus on making the world a better place rather than fighting off invading Russians. If Russia is allowed to force their will upon a free country, we are all forced to spend more resources on our militaries, which we would really prefer not to.
Again, this whole “Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia” argument just makes Russia look even more pathetic. They can just stop the invasion and leave if it isn’t in their best interest to fight. That’s literally what we’re asking for: Just stop. We don’t want this war, and the way we’re going to stop it is by helping Ukraine kill Russian soldiers on their soil until Russia gets the picture.
Finally, the thing about democratic governments lying to their citizens doesn’t really carry the weight you think it does, because we have actual free press and free speech, which leads to lying politicians being held accountable. Just take a look at any Western European democracy, and you’ll see a host of politicians that have been outed for all kinds of things, and subsequently been punished either legally (if applicable) or in the polls.
We are not talking about “most” Nato countries. We are talking about the ex-soviet countries.
You didn’t believe that ex-soviet countries were afraid of russia because Nato countries didn’t spend a lot of money on Military. But when you look at the individual countries, not at nato as a whole, those ex-soviet countries that joined Nato meet the 2% minimum (and like i said Poland even doubles it with 3.98%)
Another thing to consider is the capabilities of Russia
Russia has invaded Ukraine and bombed it to Rubbles. Russia is very much capable of attacking and destroying its Neighbours. Just take a Plane to Ukraine if you don’t belive it.
and it is illogical that Russia would attack a NATO country
Good. That means NATO is working in keeping the Russians away.
And btw, 2 years ago i personally would have declared you crazy if you told me that Russia was going to attack Ukraine. The Facts have been laid open to us. We can adapt and change to live in the new reality or live in denial.
Ukraine is a security concern for Russia, not for the United States, or the rest of Europe
Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to decide for itself what it wants
And yes it is a security concern for Europe since it’s right in its backyard, right on its Border.
And it is even a security concern since it’s a huge producer of Food, and if that food doesn’t get to Africa etc, those regions could become unstable and global terrorist attacks could rise again.
Now, does that allow the EU or the US to dictate Ukraine what it should do? NO! because Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to carve its own way! The same way that Russia isn’t allowed to interfer in Ukraine because of its supposed “security interests”
Do you support the Blockade on Cuba?
since it wants to control the world and export its culture
Russia literally is invading its Neighbours because it can’t control them. Russia is the one that spend decades forcefully “russoficating” eastern Europe.
Fascist believe in autarky and see every single nation or country as a threat
Go onto russian State TV. Quote from Russian State TV: “We have no friends in the World, only Enemies”
The US constantly talks about how important it is to work with their Allies. Who is the Fascist now?
The US has toppled far more governments than the Russians did in their entire history
excuse me what? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_change
lets not forget all the eastern block.
Well, technically you’re correct, they didn’t topple the baltics, ukraine, eastern Poland, they flat out annexed it. But I’m pretty sure that’s actually worse
When you are forcing other countries to become liberal, that is fascism.
What? i think you don’t know what fascism means, is that possible?
I think you also don’t know what “liberal” means?
I think you also don’t know how countries become liberal?
That is illogical to claim that NATO is keeping Russia at bay, then claiming that they are a threat. If Russia was a threat, then the majority of NATO did spend according to the threat level.
The US is far more fascist than Russia. Explain the difference between Russia and US, and what makes one fascist compared to the other.
That is illogical to claim that NATO is keeping Russia at bay, then claiming that they are a threat
If i am using a spear to keep a Wolf at bay, is that Wolf not a threat anymore?
If someone wants to rob me and i point a gun at them go keep them at bay, are they not a threat anymore?
I rest my case, your honour.
why is russia fascist?
idk, wanting to conquer your neighbours and ethnically cleanse them isn’t good enough for you? Not having any elections, political voilence and assasinations, no deviation from party-line, force-conscripting young men, absolutely no regard for human live (ukrainian or russian), dreams of a greater russian Reich
I am going to assume that you are writing here in good faith and as such i am going to respond to you in good faith.
I disagree. From my european point of view, NATO was able to expand exactly because Russia was still a threat. There’s a Reason why these Countries wanted to join NATO. Because they knew that russia was still a threat and would invade its Neighbours, like it is doing right now in Ukraine.
This Part confuses me a bit. In the first Part you say that Russia has a right to invade and puppet Ukraine because it is a national security interest. But in the second Part, you say that the US wouldn’t have the right to dictate the foreign policy (it doesn’t, i will come to this later on) of its NATO-Counterparts. I Personally think that your first half is the wrong half. We have to stop looking at the world as pawns in a cold war to be played, but instead as independent parties looking to coexist. I don’t think any country has the right to dictate over another because of “national security concerns”. Otherwise the US would have the Right to dictate over Europe because they’re in the USs national security concerns. And the US would have never been allowed to declare independence, because that would have gone against the national security concerns of the british empire. So no, i don’t think that any supposed “national security concerns” of Russia validate any military Action. Besides i don’t even think they had any valid national security concerns. NATO Bases stayed in the West, the “original” Parts of NATO and never got into the new eastern territorries. And the NATO memeber states in the Baltics are much much closer to St. Petersburg or moscow than Ukraine. So Ukraine really isn’t that important to Russia. Also Ukraine was never under the Influence of the US. Ukraine wanted to move to the EU, a completely european Institution where the US doesn’t even have an observer Position.
now about the NATO Part:
I hope i was able to give you some insight into this matter from a european (swiss) perspective and i was able to disprove some of your previously held notions. I hope you can use what i wrote here :)
If Russia was such a threat, then NATO countries in Europe did not spend enough on their military to meet that said threat. Europeans spent below the NATO mandate of 2.0% of their GDP. They didn’t seem scared then. NATO countries do not have an independent foreign policy. It is not in European interest to bring about sanctions that weaken their own countries and bring instability. You are speculating and have no evidence to back up your claims that European countries joined NATO because of “fear”. Hatred of communism and hatred of Russia is one thing, but fear isn’t one of them. The US provides security for NATO, Europeans saved their money to invest in their economy. It is the US that keeps NATO together, therefore, NATO unified, because there is no competition when one country foots the bill of security.
Ah yes, that is a common Misconception if you’re not European. It is very easy to lump Europeans together in one Pot. Often people just look at the Actions of France, Germany and Italy to determine “European” behavior, when the EU is actually a hugely diverse pool of 27 autonomous Nations. Yes, Western European Nations such as Germany, Italy, Belgium etc (but notably not France) did spend a lot less than the 2% target. These Nations were famously also cozying up to Russia (Nordstream), not seeing it as a Threat. However, if you look at the eastern European Nations that were occupied by and/or border on Russia, the same Nations that joined NATO because of the Threat of Russia, all of these Nations do either match or exceed the NATO-target of 2% of GDP. Poland, in Fact, spends more on its Military than even the US (in %, not total)
Biden wants a tougher Stance on China while Scholz (Germany) wants to maintain good Business Relations Biden wants a clear Stance on Taiwan while Macron (France) openly disagrees and warns not to flame tensions (and openly calls Bidens Actions unwise and dangerous)
As you can see, European Countries do have and do Excercise independent foreign Diplomacy.
Many Europeans denounced the US’s war on Vietnam. Many Europeans decided not to join the Iraqi War. All prime examples of sovereign foreign Diplomacy.
which is why we’re enacting Sanctions instead of enacting a full Embargo. Which is why we capped the Price of Russian Gas instead of banning it outright.
Do you know what weakens our countries and brings instability? A fascist country waging a war of aggression in our own backyard. Russian Spies spying on and planning attacks on military bases. Russian Misinformation.
Those Sanctions are an investment into a Future, into a Europe where the Rule of Law and Peace reside. Where there’s no fascist war of aggression over imperial ambition. Where we Europeans can peacefully coexist and build a peaceful future over wounds of old. Together.
I am going to have to ask you to remain nice and not make any accusations since i am sacrificing my time and engaging with you in good faith instead of just down-voting you. I could do other Stuff in this Time, but i specifically chose to discuss this with you since you seemed to argue in good faith as well. I am asking you for it to remain this way.
Did you ever talk to someone from this Region who was for enlargement? Because they will tell you very clearly how Russia is a danger to their Nation and livelihood and how this was the main driver on why they joined NATO (and joined it this quickly). Anyways, just for you, i asked my Estonian friend why they joined NATO and he said “did you see what Russia is doing in Ukraine?” (Translation by me) (I think he’s mad at me for even asking this? I think i should apologize and explain it to him?)
I am sorry, i am not sure how to say this nicely, but that is just wrong. the EU and its Members engaged in multiple contracts with Russia over the years and was always looking for Cooperation. There was no hatred. There is, however, a lot of fear. Which is the reason why most nations once occupied by Russia are today Europes biggest Spenders on military.
And russia to day isn’t communist anymore, it’s closest to fascist in government and ideology.
Western Europe did that (again, the exception being France). Eastern Europe has always maintained their Spending, and, as i already said, Poland even outspends the US (in %, not total)
Let me show you my Point of View: A while back, i think during the Trump Presidency, Macron(France) called NATO brain-dead and useless. A while it seemed like NATO was in an existential crisis and might not survive the decade. But ever since Russia invaded Ukraine, no one has said anything bad against NATO anymore.
It wasn’t the US, that held/put together NATO, it was Putin. Because his invasion destroyed European Peace and showed us again, why we (well, i am Swiss, so not me personally) had NATO in the first place.
We had a name for the Post-WW2 Peace. Pax Europaea (named after the roman Pax Romana). It was Russia, that destroyed this Peace. This is the Reason why we’re afraid of Russia. Why we’re against Russia. Why we invent new Sanctions. So that one Day we can create a new Pax Europaea, that will last and not be broken. So that my Children can finally live in Peace on this War-Torn Continent.
MOST NATO countries did not pay the mandatory 2% minimum. So, yes, the European states were not that considered their own security. Another thing to consider is the capabilities of Russia; Russia has no ability to project power across Europe. It is physically impossible for the Russians to conquer Europe, and it is illogical that Russia would attack a NATO country. That is a myth created to create hysteria as to garner more support against Russia. Ukraine is a security concern for Russia, not for the United States, or the rest of Europe. The US is more fascist than the Russia, since it wants to control the world and export its culture. Fascist believe in autarky and see every single nation or country as a threat. Balance of power politics is not fascism, it is rational, and common sense. The US has toppled far more governments than the Russians did in their entire history. When you are forcing other countries to become liberal, that is fascism.
How is Ukraine, a country that has spent 10 years fighting a low-intensity conflict on its own land in the Donbas, without strong military allies, and with an economy and political system that were just barely starting to see some stability, a “security concern” to Russia, a country that has soon thrown half a million men, and equipment worth several times Ukraines GDP at a war they can leave whenever they choose?
Ukraine never attacked anyone. They’re literally fighting for their lives. If Russia would just leave them alone this would be over. They didn’t have the capacity for aggression agains russia, but due to this war of Russias choosing, they’ve been forced to spend enormous amounts on scaling up their military.
Putin wanted the civil war resolved, and he thought he could trust NATO to resolve it. Instead, as Angela Merkel pointed out, the Minsk II Accords were merely to buy time to arm Ukraine.
In her interviews with Alexander Osang, which took place over a period of a year and in various locations, Merkel insisted that her stance on the Minsk agreement – which brought a ceasefire after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula – had been right. Key points of the Minsk peace talks, including disarmament and supervision by an international body, were never followed through. But Merkel said the agreement had nevertheless helped buy Kyiv time to arm itself better against the Russian military.
Angela Merkel says she lost influence over Putin as a lame duck leader https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/25/angela-merkel-says-she-lost-influence-over-putin-as-a-lame-duck-leader Minsk agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements Real intention behind Minsk agreements further destroys credibility of the West https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202212/1281708.shtml No apologies: Germany’s Merkel defends approach to Ukraine https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-politics-berlin-germany-20b29c43618d4d711d62c07b589de4b1
I deal with facts and logic. Putin does not want to fight NATO, but NATO clearly wants to fight Putin without initiating a nuclear war. Using Ukrainians to fight their war for them, which is the reason for arming them in the first place, and to use Ukraine as a NATO bulwark against Russia. Ukraine is in trouble today because of the refusal to handle the situation diplomatically. The motive is obvious, the US wants Ukrainians to fight Russia, and plotted to agitate Russia to invade Ukraine. NATO has absolutely no interest in any peace. They’re not fighting it, and they promote Ukrainians as fighting their war. A war which they can’t win. The US does not care about NATO. Caring would involve saving the lives of Ukrainians and to ensure peace and prosperity through diplomacy. If Lindsey Graham had his way, he would lower the draft age to 14 years old. It is an unhinged foreign policy; it is a war that did not need to be fought if there was a compromise. It is foolish to reject compromise because of valiant defiance. Bravado alone is not enough. The case in Ukraine shows there is irrational leadership in Ukraine. Zelenskyy was naive not acknowledge interests of other countries, especially a neighbor. Ukraine was ill-equipped, by all metrics, weaker than Russia. Russia was weak in the first year of the war, because the military was not prepared to go to war, but now Russia has a much better military, and they have the resolve to win. This shows a lack of reason on the part of the Ukrainians who seem romantically obsessed of joining NATO, which is a political alliance, and the EU, which has a military component.
You keep twisting to talking about NATO, and the EU, when an elected government in Ukraine is choosing to keep fighting. Remember that the majority of western support came after Ukrainians showed in the first weeks/months of the war that they were willing to fight- even without support.
Then you talk of how it is “irrational” for Ukraine to try to defend itself. In what world is it rational for Russia to spend so many lives and so much equipment on a war of choice?
Ukrainians wanted, and want, to live peacefully and in harmony with their neighbours. They never had any intention of hurting Russia. The Russian attack showed the whole world why any country that wants to be left alone needs to arm itself.
Hell, Russia was on its way into the good company of Western Europe, relations had never been better, with more cooperation and international trade than ever, when they decided that they had to attack and subdue Ukraine, because Ukraine was becoming a bit “too good” friends with the west.
You know you have a problem when NATO and the EU can just have a half open door, and countries actively seek to join, while Russia has to cause hundreds of thousands of deaths in order to force others to be “friendly nations” towards them.
Listen… Ukraine is irrational when they violated the conditions for which they gained independence. When Ukraine became independent, it was agreed that it would remain neutral. Since it is not neutral and actively aligning with a political alliance that is the enemy of Russia, it voided that agreement. Another thing, Crimea gained independence before Ukraine, and was an independent republic. In 1997, after bringing the Crimean Republic by force under its control, Russia, and Ukraine agreed to partition the land as to continue to have Russian military presence in Crimea. Sorry, but you are wrong, and have no basis for your argument. Russia has no interest in conquering anything and does not want to fight NATO. The US is the principle instigator that wanted Russia to invade. This is why the US has no interest in any peace process or rejected any diplomacy. Ukrainians are not supposed to win, they are supposed to weaken Russia. Russia is reacting to NATO expansion. Had Ukraine maintained neutrality like it agreed when it gain independence, it would not be in predicament. Western rhetoric and propaganda is contradictory and inconsistent; it is full of lies. NATO is neither morally on a superior level nor even obeys treaties and rules. You are repeating Western propaganda, which is proven by a study of Steve Walt and John Mearsheimer that democratic government lies to their citizens far more than autocracies. The mainstream news media that are dubbed “reliable” are narrative control. Your government wants you to believe their lies. These are the facts. Now you can believe in the myth of a Russian imperialism when it is in fact the expansion of NATO that is the problem for balance of power and ignoring international agreements, that Putin in all his years as public figure suddenly decides in Feb. 22, for no apparent reason, decided to Ukraine to start a new Russian Empire or bring back the USSR, it is a propaganda that falls flat when facts are involved. You like to pick sides, and you like to think you are with the good guys, but I can assure you, NATO are not the good guys. The US has no interests in Ukraine, Russia does, and the US, or NATO do not care about Ukraine. Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia into invasion, as to weaken them. The West did not keep their end of the bargain yet because you believe what your government and national media tells you, you have no ability to objectively judge a conclusion.
Lol, you’re literally claiming that Russia is too weak and pathetic to not attack someone when it is in their best interest to not attack them, because “big bad west” somehow forced them to attack, against their own wishes. Also, you’re talking about NATO expansion as if it’s something that’s been forced upon other countries, rather than a tough process to get through, that a bunch of countries have worked hard to complete, because they wanted to join. Just look at the recent ascension of Finland and Sweden, and you’ll quickly recognise that the main driver for NATO expansion is Russias neighbours wanting security from Russia. If Russia didn’t want others joining NATO they could just leave people alone.
Not only that, you’re saying “The US has no interest in Ukraine, Russia does…” as if “having interests in Ukraine” justifies invading the country and killing thousands of civilians. I don’t care what interests Russia has in Ukraine, they have no right to invade, because Ukraine is a sovereign country. Western countries don’t need to have interests in Ukraine to have a vested interest in maintaining a rule-based world order, where we can focus on making the world a better place rather than fighting off invading Russians. If Russia is allowed to force their will upon a free country, we are all forced to spend more resources on our militaries, which we would really prefer not to.
Again, this whole “Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia” argument just makes Russia look even more pathetic. They can just stop the invasion and leave if it isn’t in their best interest to fight. That’s literally what we’re asking for: Just stop. We don’t want this war, and the way we’re going to stop it is by helping Ukraine kill Russian soldiers on their soil until Russia gets the picture.
Finally, the thing about democratic governments lying to their citizens doesn’t really carry the weight you think it does, because we have actual free press and free speech, which leads to lying politicians being held accountable. Just take a look at any Western European democracy, and you’ll see a host of politicians that have been outed for all kinds of things, and subsequently been punished either legally (if applicable) or in the polls.
Lol, you’re literally claiming that Russia is too weak and pathetic to not attack someone when it is in their best interest to not attack them, because “big bad west” somehow forced them to attack, against their own wishes. Also, you’re talking about NATO expansion as if it’s something that’s been forced upon other countries, rather than a tough process to get through, that a bunch of countries have worked hard to complete, because they wanted to join. Just look at the recent ascension of Finland and Sweden, and you’ll quickly recognise that the main driver for NATO expansion is Russias neighbours wanting security from Russia. If Russia didn’t want others joining NATO they could just leave people alone.
Not only that, you’re saying “The US has no interest in Ukraine, Russia does…” as if “having interests in Ukraine” justifies invading the country and killing thousands of civilians. I don’t care what interests Russia has in Ukraine, they have no right to invade, because Ukraine is a sovereign country. Western countries don’t need to have interests in Ukraine to have a vested interest in maintaining a rule-based world order, where we can focus on making the world a better place rather than fighting off invading Russians. If Russia is allowed to force their will upon a free country, we are all forced to spend more resources on our militaries, which we would really prefer not to.
Again, this whole “Ukraine is a device to provoke Russia” argument just makes Russia look even more pathetic. They can just stop the invasion and leave if it isn’t in their best interest to fight. That’s literally what we’re asking for: Just stop. We don’t want this war, and the way we’re going to stop it is by helping Ukraine kill Russian soldiers on their soil until Russia gets the picture.
Finally, the thing about democratic governments lying to their citizens doesn’t really carry the weight you think it does, because we have actual free press and free speech, which leads to lying politicians being held accountable. Just take a look at any Western European democracy, and you’ll see a host of politicians that have been outed for all kinds of things, and subsequently been punished either legally (if applicable) or in the polls.
We are not talking about “most” Nato countries. We are talking about the ex-soviet countries.
You didn’t believe that ex-soviet countries were afraid of russia because Nato countries didn’t spend a lot of money on Military. But when you look at the individual countries, not at nato as a whole, those ex-soviet countries that joined Nato meet the 2% minimum (and like i said Poland even doubles it with 3.98%)
Russia has invaded Ukraine and bombed it to Rubbles. Russia is very much capable of attacking and destroying its Neighbours. Just take a Plane to Ukraine if you don’t belive it.
Good. That means NATO is working in keeping the Russians away.
And btw, 2 years ago i personally would have declared you crazy if you told me that Russia was going to attack Ukraine. The Facts have been laid open to us. We can adapt and change to live in the new reality or live in denial.
Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to decide for itself what it wants
And yes it is a security concern for Europe since it’s right in its backyard, right on its Border. And it is even a security concern since it’s a huge producer of Food, and if that food doesn’t get to Africa etc, those regions could become unstable and global terrorist attacks could rise again.
Now, does that allow the EU or the US to dictate Ukraine what it should do? NO! because Ukraine is a independent Country that is allowed to carve its own way! The same way that Russia isn’t allowed to interfer in Ukraine because of its supposed “security interests”
Do you support the Blockade on Cuba?
Russia literally is invading its Neighbours because it can’t control them. Russia is the one that spend decades forcefully “russoficating” eastern Europe.
Go onto russian State TV. Quote from Russian State TV: “We have no friends in the World, only Enemies” The US constantly talks about how important it is to work with their Allies. Who is the Fascist now?
excuse me what? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_change lets not forget all the eastern block. Well, technically you’re correct, they didn’t topple the baltics, ukraine, eastern Poland, they flat out annexed it. But I’m pretty sure that’s actually worse
What? i think you don’t know what fascism means, is that possible? I think you also don’t know what “liberal” means? I think you also don’t know how countries become liberal?
That is illogical to claim that NATO is keeping Russia at bay, then claiming that they are a threat. If Russia was a threat, then the majority of NATO did spend according to the threat level. The US is far more fascist than Russia. Explain the difference between Russia and US, and what makes one fascist compared to the other.
Which Countries Meet NATO’s 2% Spending Target? - https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-countries-meet-natos-spending-target/
If i am using a spear to keep a Wolf at bay, is that Wolf not a threat anymore?
If someone wants to rob me and i point a gun at them go keep them at bay, are they not a threat anymore?
I rest my case, your honour.
idk, wanting to conquer your neighbours and ethnically cleanse them isn’t good enough for you? Not having any elections, political voilence and assasinations, no deviation from party-line, force-conscripting young men, absolutely no regard for human live (ukrainian or russian), dreams of a greater russian Reich
You want me to go on?
It’s on their own Website. Open the PDF. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_197050.htm